Episode 72: Marketing Essentials with Peter Sandeen – Transcript
Rennie Gabriel 00:09
Hi, folks, welcome to episode 72 of the Wealth On Any Income Podcast. This is where we talk about money tips, techniques, attitudes, information and provide inspiration. I'm your host, Rennie Gabriel. In past episodes, we spoke about how to build an Income and Expense Report, how to measure the level of pleasure based on where you spend your money, how to track your money in 5 - 10 seconds, what to look for on a net worth statement to see how close you are to Complete Financial Choice®. And last week, we had Matt Champagne, talking about how to keep your clients forever by using intelligent surveys, versus the junk survey questions too many companies send out. Today we have as our guest, Peter Sandeen. Peter, did I pronounce your last name correctly?
Peter Sandeen 01:00
Close enough? Yes.
Rennie Gabriel 01:01
Okay. All right. Peter is often called the "marketers' marketer", because more than half of his clients are marketing experts. His primary focus is marketing messages and funnels, but he spent nearly a decade in copywriting and conversion optimization. He now helps small business owners get more leads and sales from their website. Peter, you and I are in a mastermind group together, so we've had some brief conversations, but I am looking forward to spending more time. And tell me more specifically what you do, and why you do it.
Peter Sandeen 01:43
So I focus primarily on the messaging. And that became from doing a lot of conversion optimization, because conversion optimization typically means just testing all sorts of things. And almost any test can create the result - a big result. So sometimes if you change the button color, it will make a big difference. But those are very, very unusual situations. Whereas if you change what you get people to understand or what you ask them to do - so really the messaging side of things - that will almost always create a significant change in the results. If you improve the messaging, it gets better. If you make it worse, then the results get much worse. But yeah, that's why I got into focusing on that, because I could see that that is really what makes the difference. So regardless of what tactic you use, or strategy, if you're not getting people to understand the right things they're not going to buy. So yeah, that's, I guess, the very simple answer why I focus on that now.
Rennie Gabriel 02:40
And that makes sense. Now, as you're probably aware, I donate 100% of the profits from the work I do to charity. So philanthropy is a big deal for me and the guests I have on the show. So tell me about what's your favorite cause or charity that you support.
Peter Sandeen 03:02
I think WWF is the main one that - the one that I really care most about. Somehow nature and wildlife feel like something I want to donate to. Not that there would be anything wrong, for example, I know the Shelter to Soldier, the one that you promote and support. I think, great idea. I especially like it because dogs are involved. I'm very much a dog person. And an overall - just a wonderful idea. I have nothing against ones that support humans, but somehow for me, I just feel like, there's often the sense of how inefficient it is. Because a lot of the people are not willing to take the help in a lot of the situations. Now I'm not at all talking about the one you support. But if it's animals, they're definitely like, they're just going to do their thing. And we can either help or not. And somehow it just feels good for me to help that sort of thing.
Rennie Gabriel 03:54
Well, yeah. And I would also say that, you know, for those who aren't familiar, WWF is World Wildlife Fund. And those generally are animals that can't speak for themselves. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So again, yeah. Thank you, Peter. So tell me who are your target markets or who, you know, give me an example of a target client for you.
Peter Sandeen 04:23
There's basically two types. One is fairly established business owners, typically in the $200,000 to $5-$6 million revenue range. A lot of them are marketing experts. I mean, 70% or so of my clients right now - actually, right now more than that - are marketing experts. So people who do marketing, consulting, coaching, selling marketing products, services. The others are anything from, you know, jewelry to air conditioning, to B2B agencies or software or like, I mean, anything and everything. Even some artists here and there. The other group are, let's say more like beginner solopreneurs. Very small business owners, they might have an assistant or two, but they're pretty much doing everything on their own. Typically in $10 - 100,000 range in revenue. I still help all of these people with the same things. And that's kind of the funny part, how I help changes, yes, but messaging, which is really like a combination of who you're talking to, how they think of the topic, what you're offering them, and how you're describing it. That's something that even very, very good marketers need help with, because it's really hard to do for yourself, even if you're good at doing it for others. And I don't do marketing for them. I mean, I don't attempt to get those clients, but they talk with each other - that's how I get those clients. And they help, they really need the help with the same exact stuff. Same thing with funnels. I just was on a call with someone who's helped, I don't really know how many hundreds of people figure out their own marketing, and really struggles to figure out her own. Like one of the most brilliant marketers I've ever seen, and really, really doesn't have a clue how to do it for herself. Or has a clue, but like too many ideas, too many things to potentially focus on, too many, like, if you would just let her do her thing, it would take her 60 years to build the one funnel. Because it would have 158 different videos and so on. Like, because especially people who know a lot about marketing, whether a professional marketer or not, it's hard to take away ideas. It's hard to see which of these 600 good ideas, ideas that really genuinely could make more profit, which ones are the actually essential ones. And that's really what I focus on. And even my tagline is marketing essentialism, I try to always, specifically see - what are the essential parts. And let's get first those parts right, and then start adding in all the other things if we want to. Because as long as you miss one of the essentials, nothing else really matters. But as soon as you get all the essentials right, you can get very good results with very simple, like very simple systems even so.
Rennie Gabriel 07:11
Yeah, yeah, it reminds me of an expression one of my mentors used often, and that is 'fish can't see the water they're swimming in'. And so when you're dealing with a marketing expert, who's helping other people, they don't necessarily have the ability to see their own situation, and what would work the best for themselves.
Peter Sandeen 07:34
Yeah, like, really, I think that it seems that the more people know about marketing, the more they struggle with narrowing down to what matters. People who don't know a lot about marketing will struggle to have good ideas. They will have one or two or maybe ten. But they are clearly missing some things in each of them. Whereas the people who really know marketing very well might have a hundred really good ideas, ones that have all the necessary pieces, but then also six hundred extra pieces. They don't have time for all of that. So the narrowing down to what actually makes the most, the biggest difference is, yeah, it's a different skill.
Rennie Gabriel 08:12
Well, you know, talking about how it works for other people, let's talk about what was your biggest failure, whether it's personal or business?
Peter Sandeen 08:24
Hmm, I think one that is that I've really stuck to my ideas of how I should run the business. Like I think I've been essentially trying to copy my father's business, which was him doing just endless hours with low prices. And just thinking that he has to do everything perfectly, instead of just getting things done at a reasonable pace. So again, I'm the fish that can't see the water because like I, this is exactly the thing that I help many other people with. I'm pretty good at choosing what I focus on and how well I do things for myself. But then I might spend ludicrous amounts of time on some small product, for example, that really should take two weeks, and I might spend months thinking through some different permutations of how I could do it. Like I'm right now working on one that I expected, I fully truly expected it to take maybe, maximum 200 hours. I'm now well over 1000 hours and probably much, much more, and just because I didn't figure out how to explain one topic well enough. And I just wouldn't publish it before I get it right, because I know it is one that everyone struggles with. And if I do a poor job of it, then the whole product is kind of like, do I really want to publish it? No. So then I get stuck on those sorts of things. So I don't know if it's a mistake, but it's something that I keep doing still, even though I'm very aware of it that instead of letting go of the idea of how perfectly something has to be done, see that - well get it done at a good enough level and then improve from there.
Rennie Gabriel 10:01
So, yeah, it's something, I'm trying to think of another expression - has something to do with 'mediocre execution will always trump delayed perfection'.
Peter Sandeen 10:15
Yes.
Rennie Gabriel 10:16
Any way I think I just made that up because I know it's not really close to the expression I wanted to say,
Peter Sandeen 10:23
Done is better than perfect.
Rennie Gabriel 10:25
Yes. Thank you. That's a much shorter and better way to phrase it. Done is better than, you know, not delivering something perfect. What was the insight you got from this situation?
Peter Sandeen 10:40
I guess I should have drawn some more insight. But it's good that you asked so that I actually learned from it may be finally because I've been in this situation many times before. Clearly, I haven't drawn an insight from it. I think, what really would be the thing for me, that probably would help is that if I start on a project, I would specify for myself, what is the acceptable level. Like, what is it that it has to do so that it's good enough. And then if something goes better than that, great, but if something, like everything has to at least be on that level, but I wouldn't put a whole lot of effort into making it better than acceptable. And then if something is easy to make better, then great, but not get stuck on some like individual module of a product for months just because I haven't found the perfect way of explaining something. I think I've now figured it out but it took me months, and the solution I found was completely ridiculous. Like, it took me months to figure out that hey, this, life coaching technique, or something, could be used for explaining an email marketing technique in a way that I think actually gets people to understand it. Which is, I mean, anyway... when people see it I think some people will laugh a lot, because that's a ridiculous solution to such a problem. But yeah, just having clearer standards, like written down, what are the standards, so that I don't get this feeling that, well, I have to do better than this, even though it's already perfectly functional, and no one would ever complain. And it's, yeah . . .
Rennie Gabriel 12:09
I'm going to put you on the spot here. And one of the things that I've noticed is that one of the requirements for psychologists is to be in therapy. And one of the things that I say, over and over again, is 'wealth creation is a team sport, not a solo sport'. And what I'm hearing is that you're the only one directing all of this for yourself. And so I'm putting you on the spot by saying, well, who do you speak to when you get stuck like this?
Peter Sandeen 12:47
My wife, and she is actually very good at solving these things for me.
Rennie Gabriel 12:52
Were you speaking with her on this project that took 1000 hours?
Peter Sandeen 12:57
Not enough, clearly.
Rennie Gabriel 12:58
Okay. Just a little reminder, that's all. So I'm going to guess your prospects may be making some of the same mistakes. Is that correct?
Peter Sandeen 13:10
Yep, definitely. And my clients too.
Rennie Gabriel 13:13
Okay. Now, do you have an example, like a case study of someone who had poor messaging, worked with you, created clear messaging, and what that result would be?
Peter Sandeen 13:28
Yes, plenty.
Rennie Gabriel 13:30
Good. Let's have one.
Peter Sandeen 13:30
I think the clearest one was a guy named Steve Horseman, who focuses on helping men in relationships. And the result was that as soon as we changed the messaging on his homepage, and the emails he sent to his list, he got more high-end clients in two weeks than in the previous six months combined. And that was really nothing else changed than those two things, the homepage, what he said there, not that there was a new opt-in offer or anything, just what it was about, and what he talked about in emails focusing on the new marketing message. Because the marketing message as I define it, like what I go at is figuring out what are the most important things for people to understand about what you do, or the most impactful things to understand.
Rennie Gabriel 14:17
Well, having more incoming leads in two weeks than six months sounds like a good improvement.
Peter Sandeen 14:24
Yeah. No. Paying clients.
Rennie Gabriel 14:26
Oh, paying clients. Oh, fine. Sorry. Thank you. That's much better.
Peter Sandeen 14:31
Yeah.
Rennie Gabriel 14:32
So let me ask, if people want to get a hold of you, is there some valuable free resource maybe that you can provide that would support them and they can get a hold of you from that?
Peter Sandeen 14:43
Yeah. If someone goes to my homepage, so petersandeen.com, there's a video that tells what the thing is that I'm now going to talk about, but it's basically a video where I go through some marketing messaging mistakes that even marketing experts make. They're the same mistakes that beginners make and experts make. So it's really like anyone who's in business should get some value out of it. And at least people have so far said that it is, whether they've been in business for two decades or two months, it's been helpful. So that's probably a good, good start. And you can respond to any email you get from me. I mean, obviously, you join my email list to get the video, that's how these things work. I'm happy, I mean, if someone responds, I respond 99% of the time, sometimes takes a while, but I do respond almost every time.
Rennie Gabriel 15:32
Terrific. Okay, so that is not what I had for my show notes. I had six figure website redesign, which is all kind of long, so it'd be easier to put Peter Sandeen. And, your . . .
Peter Sandeen 15:44
Yeah. And we didn't end up talking about websites. The one you're referring to, it's actually just sixfigurewebsite.com. It goes to the same page. And that's a - it's a video of how I redid my own website, like the whole behind the scenes process.
Rennie Gabriel 16:00
Okay, so it sounds like I could still use that in the show notes.
Peter Sandeen 16:06
You can do both if you want.
Rennie Gabriel 16:08
Okay, perfect. Now, is there a question that I should have asked you, that would give some great value to my listeners? And obviously answer it. But what would the question and the answer be?
Peter Sandeen 16:21
Well, since we're talking about, we've been primarily talking about messaging, I think a clear example of it would be something that would make messaging more effective. Something that would actually make what you say have more impact on people. And this is probably fairly counter intuitive. But saying fewer things usually works much better. Because if you say a lot of things, then all of it ends up being kind of watered down. I mean, imagine a car salesman claims that this car is fast and very nice in city and long road trips and short road trips, and they just are and it's very safe and ecological and has great stereo and brakes and nice seats and goes on and on and on. Like does anything that he says anymore, have really any impact? Not really.
Rennie Gabriel 17:09
No, I fell asleep somewhere through there.
Peter Sandeen 17:12
Yeah, and I was only halfway through the example. But that's not at all exaggerated. People don't usually realize they do this. But very, I mean, 95% of business owners do this, on their homepage, do this when they talk to other people about their business, do this in their advertisements, do this on their landing pages, in their emails everywhere. They don't focus on very specific things, but rather, they kind of talk about everything. And they overall create a sense of blah, like just nothing really, like nothing stands out. So it even though it can feel scary, and if you don't do it well, it doesn't work either very well. But like saying fewer things, at least gives you really the option of having some impact with what you say.
Rennie Gabriel 17:57
So what I'm hearing is that you support people to focus on those fewer things that will have the greatest impact.
Peter Sandeen 18:04
Definitely, yes.
Rennie Gabriel 18:06
Okay.
Peter Sandeen 18:06
And there are basically just two things those need to do. One is make your target customers really sense that this is something they want. So you can offer them something they actively want it not just that they see it as valuable, but they actually want to get it and make them see why it's the best option for them. So what makes it different from the comparison points that are in their heads.
Rennie Gabriel 18:28
Beautiful. Thank you.
Peter Sandeen 18:28
In a way that they actually care about. Because I mean, the silly example I often use is that well, I climb almost every day, I am now probably the only marketing expert, you know, who cllimbs almost every day. Are you going to hire me because of that? Probably not. It's probably unique, but why would you care? So it has to be something that is unique in a way they care about and understand. But yeah, that can be tricky, especially when you do it for yourself. I'm happy to help with it. But like, no, but like seriously, like those are the things you need to do. But saying fewer things, even though it's kind of scary, gives you a better chance of getting good results with it.
Rennie Gabriel 19:08
And you know what, and that also fits the analogy of medicine, where the general practitioner who can handle all sorts of things gets paid far less than the surgeon who only operates on one thing.
Peter Sandeen 19:22
Yup.
Rennie Gabriel 19:23
So, Peter, thank you for being on the show.
Peter Sandeen 19:27
Thanks for having me.
Rennie Gabriel 19:28
You're welcome. And to my listeners, thank you for tuning in. You can listen to the Wealth On Any Income Podcast on your favorite platform. And please rate, review and subscribe. And if you'd like to know how books, movies and Society programs you to be poor, and what the cure is, then log on to wealthonanyincome.com/TEDx. You'll hear my TEDx talk and can request a free 27-page Roadmap to Complete Financial Choice® and receive a weekly email with tips, techniques, or inspiration around your business or money. Again, that's wealthonanyincome.com/TEDx. Next week, we'll have Debbie Allen talking about making a difference in the lives of others by recognizing you are an expert. Until next week, be prosperous. Bye bye for now.
